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Post by saltcitybaptist on Jul 14, 2002 0:34:23 GMT -5
Rev B Just want to make sure I understand where you are comming from. Would you be involved in an organzation (eg denomanation, association, Christian School, Mission agy, or ect) if they: 1. accepted sprinkling as baptism 2. doctrine of Trinity was opitional 3. allowed homosexuals to be involved
If this were the case, should we make an issue? These are consv vs Lib issues and THEY NEED TO BE ADDRESSED! I am not ashamed to say I AM RIGHT - YOU ARE WRONG!, on issues such as these. Is this politics, call it what you want, but these are some of the C vs L issues in the SBC. Whether you are S Bap or Independent, we are obligated to take a stand. Lets take a look at the other end. Some pastors will preach a women in sinning by wearing pants. Is this C vs L? As you said this is interpertations. Or how KJV vs any other version. There are many issues out there and they will not go away. By not taking a stand we have taken a stand. There ar some issues I will comprise, others I will not. Yes, we need to Preach the Blessed Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, there are times when John and Mary will come to our church beacuse there last church was upset over the length of her dress and the length of his hair. What will be our answer to them, when they tell us their last pastor said he doubted their salvation beacause of the aforementioned items. Rev B, I truly thank you for your input, I trust the Lord that we will both be better servants for his glory.
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Post by enoch on Dec 1, 2002 9:36:01 GMT -5
It has been a long while since I jumped into this issue, but here goes. I'm not sure anyone is even still checking out this particular thread, I hope they are. The issues are still fresh. The 3 issues last mentioned have got me a little flummoxed. Baptism as by immersion only. Doctrine of trinity as optional. and Homosexuals in the congregation.
Let us look at these individually. I will start with the Doctrine of the Trinity. I believe this wholeheartedly, but I see it as more as a secondary issue to salvation. Let us win the lost to Jesus Christ first, ground them in His Word as disciples, then show them doctrinal issues when they can make an informed stand on them. Secondly, baptism by immersion only. I baptize by immersion, but I recognize that baptism is an act of will that reflects a stand in Jesus Christ and an identification with His death, burial and resurrection. The problem with baptisms is blurred by the fact that Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan in the manner of the time which was by sprinkling. The baptism was for an entirely different reason, He was being annointed in preparation for His ministry which He was just beginning. Baptism is not an act of annointing for a new believer, nor is it an act of regeneration. Do we have the right to demand someone be baptized again by immersion when they have already been saved and made their profession to the world by baptism, even if it is by sprinkling or pouring. The greeks who translated baptism as immersion even sprinkled. I am convinced that God does not care one whit about how we baptize, but that we submit and make our identification with Christ Jesus through this simple act of will. Baptism does not save, it identifies one who has already been saved. The means of baptism are unimportant except to those who must have their own way. I am a control freak, and yet even I am not that stubborn about this issue. Thirdly. Homosexuals. Are we talking about practicing homosexuals or regenerate believers who were homosexuals and are struggling with this issue? Or are we talking about letting a sinner attend church? If we are discussing an unregenerate practicing homosexual seeking church membership, the answer is a resounding NO! But if we are discussing keeping a sinner out of the services where he/she can hear the gospel and be convicted by the Holy Spirit, then HOW DARE WE! I had a member who led a young woman who was "shacking up" with a man. They had had a child together. She made a profession of faith and wanted to attend services and bring her companion to hear the gospel as well. Another man who was the Pastor at the time forbade her to attend until she left the man she was living with or married him. She never attended again. I spoke with them on various occasions after I became the Pastor but they were so offended by this man that they never would come. Church is not a social club for the saved, it is a hospital for the sinner who needs to be saved. Let's stop playing "church" and be one to a lost world. "Behold I come quickly, and I bring my justice with me to mete out to every man according as to his works."
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Post by evanman on Jan 8, 2003 22:32:39 GMT -5
Please give me your imput. It is necessary for the name Baptist to appear in the proper name of a local assembly as one of the criteria for a New Testament church today?
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Post by Tom in SA on Jan 11, 2003 19:09:02 GMT -5
evanman, Certainly not! A Church is not really defined by the letters on the sign. Curious -- Are you considering changing an existing Churches name or starting one with a -minus Baptist name.
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Post by evanman on Jan 16, 2003 23:53:27 GMT -5
I already took a mission church with an SBC designation and constituted it as a not with any denomination. This was done in the state of Arizona. I am being lead to start a fellowship of believers in Louisiana. The SBC, as I knew it, no longer exits! Church polity exercised by most SBC or SBT groups is at the very least questionable. I was raised in a great SBC church in West Texas. I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior at the age of nine. I have attended and/or pastored SBC churches in Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and on mission in Arizona. I never experienced freedom in proclaiming the the Gospel and pastoring a fellowship like I experienced while pastoring the not with any denomination church in Arizona. The clamor which has been raised by the Cooperative Baptist and the Southern Baptist is about politics and property,power and money. My desire is to preach and teach the Word of God without interference of wrangling factions...May the Holy Spirit bless each of us who honestly and intelligently present Jesus Christ in a world filled with sinners.
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Post by Tom in SA on Jan 19, 2003 18:56:39 GMT -5
I pastored in Utah Evanman TEXT, so I too know what it is like to pastor without the politics found in the Bible Belt. But I also think we have to accept certain tags attached to our ministries. One just has to be sure that they can live with them, and I think it is better if one chooses one's own tag. In Texas, it is not always best to cast asside the issues, because in doing so we wind up casting asside a great many Christians who need to minister and be ministered to. In returning to Texas, I decided that I would not address the issue and thus never have to make a choice. But I wound up confusing more people because of my indecision. I am speaking of Christians so I realize that evangelism is not affected by these tags. In fulfilling the Great Commission, each organization is doing their part (CBF & IMB). I praise God for them! p.s. Are you sure you are called to go to Louisianna? Moving from Arizona? Arizona has some beautiful country and wonderful people!
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Post by evanman on Jan 22, 2003 12:39:44 GMT -5
Brother Tom,
Thanks for you reply. I appreciate it.
My wife return to Louisiana two years ago. Yes, Arizona is a beautiful state. I loved the six years we spent there. I went to Arizona from Oklahoma as a church planter. I could not do the job within the framework of attitude and actions of one person, the pastor of the sponsering church. So, the mission voted to constitute as an church and issued a call to me to be the founding and first pastor of the church. They also voted to be a not-with-any- denomination fellowship. I experienced a wonderful freedom in the Spirit and liberty in presenting the gospel in that area.
We left because my wife, a government employee, was transfered to Shreveport. God wanted me to leave. One reason for which I now know it was Hiswill: I had health issues. It was not until I returned to Louisiana and that I found out I am a Type II diabetic. Although I was under a physican's care in Arizona, I was being treated for some of the symptoms and not the condition. So, I praise the Lord Jesus, my Savior, for forcing my family and I out of Arizona. My health is very good now. I praise Christ for my wonder wife, too.
Dear brother, I fear that improper church politics are practiced in every state. Some denominations leaders practice sinning.
A case in point: The largest bankruptcy for a non-proit corporation to occur in the United States is the Baptist Foundation of Ariziona. I am still floored when I view via the internet some of the legal filings. Also, I am aghast at the real estate still in the process of being liguidation in several states including the state of Hawaii! Real estate for new shopping center, home developements, senior citizens' residencies, etc. I am appalled because the pastor of the sponsering church for the mission which I pastored on the board of the Arizona Baptist Foundation and serve as Chairman.
I understand a couple of the board members are now serving time for their involvement. There as many as three others who have already been convicted. Again, this the largest, in terms of money, nonproit organization to go bankrupt in the United States. At the initial report, investments were close to a billion dollars! When the true accounting was made about 300 million could be found.
I have conclued that some of those involved were either/or/or possible both (1) to dumb to know how to attend the Lord's business, (2) participated in the illegal, imoral, un-Bibical activities, (3) participated in the cover up. (4) to shy or cowardly to cry "foul". I have always said, "Would it be interesting to see which, if any, of those leaders pull their personal investments out of the BFA prior to the State of Arizona stopping the BFA from doing business?" They had knowledge of the problem no less than one year prior the the State of Arizona taking action.
I am profoundly sorry that about 1300 people and churches and maybe other entities will recover maybe thirty per cent of their orginial investments. I had righteous indignation from the fact that the Baptist Foundation and Southern Baptist Convention of Arizona and the DOEM of the Yavapai Southern Baptist Association all, corporatively and indiidually, through lies and misrepresentations, promoted investmenets using those of us who were doing mission work and the mission work itself. This was the reasoning they present to get people and other entities to invest. I am not angry anymore. I had to work through it. But I will not refuse to disclose those actions or any others which clearly and blatenly sin.
Are there other Baptist Foundations in the others taking the money from Christians and non-Christians and investing those monies (!) in unGodly ventures and/or (2) where are the profits, if any, really going?
So, the Lord through His word and experience and emotion and by intellect may it clear that my call is to give 100% attention to Him though a local church which I am either/or call to plant or pastor as existing fellowship.
May the Holy Spirit convict and convince each of us to repent and turn from our wicked ways then will we hear from heaven. I pray "Thank your Lord Jesus for your mercy and grace. Thank you for forgiveness when we request it. Thank you for born-again Christians who walk not after the flesh but after the Holy Spirit. Amen."
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