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Post by saltcitybaptist on Jul 29, 2002 20:46:25 GMT -5
When a SBC church grows large enough that the sanctuary is filled to capacity, should the leadeship consider starting a second service, or should they start two or three mission churches? Is there a "right" answer?
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Post by Uth_Guy on Jul 30, 2002 10:36:57 GMT -5
As you said: "Is there a right answer?" Both have advantages. Being one church with two services might attract others if the worship style is varied; contemporary and traditional. This provides diversity while maintaining the on-going mission of a local church. However, can the current church/worship/teaching structure handle two unique congregations? Starting a mission church is a huge undertaking. One question I would ask is "Has the Lord led the leadership to this stage?" & "Is this God's will for our congregation and will it prove a honest spiritual benefit to your target area/residents?" Both answer the call of the Great Commission so we are not in conflict with scripture. I would pray that God would rise up servant to take on the task of a new church start and allow Him to lead. This may come from an outside-of-the-church need or request or it may be from a member that has been led to go with a new start.
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Rev_C
Full Member
Posts: 13
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Post by Rev_C on Jul 30, 2002 20:10:27 GMT -5
Hello everyone,
I thought I would put my .02 in.
It really depends on the situation. I know of one church that went to two services. Many of the congregation went into the 1st service whereby the 2nd service looked empty. Also, a church would have to take into consideration about the worship styles. I know that can sometimes split a church.
I cannot really say about starting a new work. It would have to be "bathed" in prayer and guided by the Holy Spirit.
Rev_C Galatians 2:20
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Post by saltcitybaptist on Jul 30, 2002 21:50:45 GMT -5
UTH-GUY brought up an interesting point. Have one Trad service and one contempoary service. However, if that is the case, is that not acutually two different churches?
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Post by ABC_Ron on Jul 31, 2002 1:18:17 GMT -5
Howdy,
You guys are really at the forefront of the question concerning 'church growth'. Swindoll, when he was at Fullerton EV Free church built (through the congregation) four different church buildings on the same property. As they built one to 'fit the crowd in' it filled up, over and over again. Finially he said 'this is not the way to 'Build God Church', so he went to a expanding model. He would ask 50 families to follow a staff person into the surrounding community and birth another church. Pretty soon the Los Angeles, Orange County region and Southern California was full of EV Free churches all trying to reach pretty much the same people. He said again, maybe this isn't the right way either. In the end he said the Holy Spirit provides the growth and I just plant seeds. When he move to Texas he started a church in a country club and became a mega church in one week. So, who knows. You do what seems right, in tune with the Holy Spirit and whatever you do will be blessed. A note for planting churches: new churches grow faster than established ones. I know that seems to fly in our face but its true. No only that but a congregation planting a new work seems to get everybody involved where they were just pew sitters before. Something about the excitement of seeing something come from their work. Some great material on the subject is "Great Commission Church Planting Strategy" a work by the Church of the Nazarene, "Effective Church Growth", by Joe Wall and Gene Getz, for the EV Free folks, ""Leading a Congregational Change:" by Herrington, Bonem anf Furr, background unknown and of course "Purpose Driven Church" by SBC Rick Warren. If there is interest I'll list a few more text for ideas. Church growth and assimilation is my passion. God Bless your efforts, Ron
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Post by Uth_Guy on Jul 31, 2002 12:38:04 GMT -5
. However, if that is the case, is that not acutually two different churches? Yes, it really is. Preparation is the key; spiritual and all the rest! We have the larger language (Chinese)congregation and the separate English service. The Chinese is VERY traditional while the English is much more relaxed and contemporary. Communication is vital to keep the two moving smoothly. Sometimes it doesn't work and so we try again.
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DrJ
Full Member
Posts: 11
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Post by DrJ on Sept 26, 2002 12:41:23 GMT -5
Church Growth--just can't do it.
I spent a little time as a Church Growth Consultant and generally surprised folks with the concept that "Ya'll cain't do it, folks." Fact is, we were never meant to do it. Remember when ol' Peter (not the rabbit) confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus responded, "You got it right, Pete (the DJPV--Dr J's Paraphrased Version), and it's on this rock (the reality that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God) that I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Yike, what a concept: Jesus is the builder of the Church. He could have said, "Okay, now Pete, I want all ya'll to get out there and build my Church for me." But that's not what He said. He said He would do it.
Then what about us? Well, we have a commission of our own together as His Church (which everyone who has ever been an RA knows): We're supposed to be going out there into the world and making disciples of every ethne (every ethnic group), (we Baptist like this part) baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe (do it, not look at it) all that I've commanded you and lo I'm with you always...."
Of course, we often equate this with Church Growth, but in reality it is doing what God has called us to do and letting Him take care of the "results". He calls us to be faithful in the proclamation, etc. and He will build His Church. Now how we go about doing that (i.e. being faithful to His calling to us) can look like any number of things, including starting new churches, having multiple services (don't have to be different from one another but can be--the issue is "space" not method), or building onto the building. I don't think God is particularly particular about what we do in that regard, as long as we're being faithful in the proclamation of the Good News of Jesus. He knows our heart's desire regardless of "method" or "plan" is to further His Kingdom (not necessarily to make our own congregation bigger but to be faithful in the proclamation). Regardless of the results of our faithfulness, that's still all God wants of us. He's into the results part. His call to us is to let Him have that, and to simply do the part to which He's called us. So, Pastors, don't be discouraged if your congregation isn't growin IF you're being faithful in proclaiming the Word. Some seeds aren't going to sprout right away & you may be long gone before they do. Still you're called to get the seed out there. If your congregation is growing wildly, on the other hand, be careful not to start taking credit for it (i.e. "We're growing because we went to two services." or "We're growing because we're starting new Churches." or "We're growing because of anything you did." ) Church Growth is what Jesus does. Faithfulness in proclaiming the Gospel (as a congregation together) is what we do (in God's power). When our congregation is growing, much of that growth is Jesus using seeds others have planted--not us. Some is His using seeds we have planted. Some other congregation may be growing because He's using seeds we planted in our congregation. We have no real concept or knowledge about all the factors that Jesus uses to grow His Church. I am saved today partly because of Jesus using some neighbors of my dad's (when he was a child) to drive him to Sunday School and Church services. I don't know those people, can't tell you their names, but they got my dad to Church where he was saved. He then raised his kids in the Church where we heard the Gospel through the ministries of many Sunday School teachers, RA & GA leaders, youth leaders, etc. and all of us we're saved. Now I have three children--all who have put their faith in Jesus as their Savior. They certainly don't know those people who drove my dad to church. Those folks helped plant seeds (as did others along the way) but the Church has grown because Jesus used all these things together to BUILD HIS CHURCH.
I'm glad He hasn't called me to build His Church and equally glad for the privilege of being given a place in proclaiming His Word. So, take heart. You can start another service or two or three, build onto your building or start other congregations (take your choice) and be faithful in proclaiming the Gospel and Jesus WILL build His Church (in and out of your congregation).
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Post by Uth_Guy on Oct 22, 2002 21:31:43 GMT -5
DrJ, I appreciate your thoughts. When we were overseas as a church planter, we were quick to understand that we can't do it. You can study and prepare demographic reports and the like but really, it is only God that can do the work. By His mercy and grace, that work is done with and through us. It does make you think! Thanks for your imput!
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Post by aemaines on Nov 29, 2002 16:41:39 GMT -5
I think that Jesus' admonition to us "as you are going, make disciples of all..." would seem to indicate that new churches are the way to go. We are after all branches and as such we should grow new branches and new locations.
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Post by enoch on Jan 6, 2003 22:57:42 GMT -5
I have always believed that God's people are served best by a personal Pastor and a good set of deacons who are involved. How can a Pastor or deacon be effective when there are so many people in their congregation that they don't even know their names? When a congregation reaches the point where the deacons are spread so thin that they are ineffective, or the Pastor no longer can name every member, or begins to fail to recognize the difference between a new and a recurring visitor, it is time to start a new mission church. Big churches are good for lots of resources, but they are also a breeding ground for individuals who want to attend so they can become anonymous. I have been fortunate to attend a church in the past where the Pastor was able to effectively minister to 480 members, but he was an exceptionally gifted Pastor. These men are few and far between. I know my limitations. I would never dream of telling another person what I presumed theirs to be. But when we fail to do our job properly as Pastors, it is time to accept our frailties and start a mission church so as to lessen our burden and to share the ministry to the saints with others.
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BLB
Junior Member
Posts: 7
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Post by BLB on Jan 26, 2003 15:59:06 GMT -5
Everyone here has raised some very valid points. I would like to throw in my 2¢. I have belonged to small churches & a mega church. The mega church has reached more people for Christ than all the other SBC churches in the state combined. Why? Because as the church grew they kept adding programs to reach the lost and the un-churched. They outgrew one facility with 3 Sunday morning worship services. Built a new one to seat 6,000 adults, went to two services, and then built a 500 seat chapel to handle the overflow.
Years ago many people in cities did not have cars & so it was the norm to build neighborhood churches so that folks could walk to church. Today we are a highly mobile society. It is not uncommon for people to drive 20, 30 & yes even 40 miles to church.
When a new work is started it should be done in an area of growth, not where there is another SBC church within a mile or two. They should not be built in residential neighborhoods, but on major thoroughfares with drive by traffic. When folks move to a new home in a new section of a city they are not going to drive up & down residential streets looking for a church to attend. But they will try a church that they drive past every day going to and from work, school or shopping.
A sanctuary should be designed in a manner that it can be expanded without major construction. Ie; my wife & I belonged to a church that was designed to seat 500 adults. But the wall between the sanctuary & foyer could be easily removed & seating for an additional 200 people could be added in just a day. The church also owns an additional 40 acres of land behind and adjacent to the current church plant for future expansion. The bottom line when starting a new work is do it where there is a need and hire a church architect to design it. Any architect can design a building but few know how to really design a church.
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Post by Shiloh on Feb 2, 2003 18:25:05 GMT -5
Yes, two different churches. We tried to have 3. A traditional at 8 AM, a Country Church at 11 and a Contemporay on Sat night. The contemporay eventually move dout and sort of died or morphed into an apartment ministry and the traditional just died.
Actually, if we were smart in construction we would build so that of we grew out of it someone would buy it because it did not look like church building. A convention center or business complex design would be more functional. The church next door is landlocked and looks like a church in an area turned industrial. They want 900,000 for it and humanly speaking it will be impossible to get that for it. If it could be easily converted by some business firm they might have a short at getting what they want. As it stands it will not attract another rcongregation large enough to afford it and a congregation small enough to use it won't be able to afford it. If it were cheaper we might buy it and use the building for our school.
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