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RAPTURE
Apr 12, 2002 19:38:16 GMT -5
Post by boB on Apr 12, 2002 19:38:16 GMT -5
Do we over- preach the rapture? Do we preach it enough? Shoould we down play it, and just emphasis salvation?
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RAPTURE
Apr 12, 2002 23:16:25 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on Apr 12, 2002 23:16:25 GMT -5
boB, I think some over preach it and make too many speculations. Others ignore it. As we teach the whole counsel of God, it and its types will come up and we will discuss it in due proportion to the rest of the issues like holiness/separation, evangelism, gifts, etc. My pastor is in Revelation right now and he is preaching about it and that it is soon. The problem with prophecy is that most people care more about the antiChrist and what size sneaker he wears and if he is gay, Goy or Jew and not about purifying themselves and being ready which is the whole point of the prophecy to encourage us and exhort us to holiness as we see the day approaching. Wesley had it right when he said to plan our lives like He will not be back for a 100 years, but live our lives like He is coming back today. If we do that then it does not much matter to the average Joe if it is Pre, Mid or Post.
Preach it and preach it Pre, but live like it may be Mid or Post, tomorrow or long after you are dead and you will be happy when it occurs. Most of us will be ashamed at His appearing.
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RAPTURE
Apr 20, 2002 13:30:31 GMT -5
Post by enoch on Apr 20, 2002 13:30:31 GMT -5
Prophecy properly understood is a motivation tool.
As we understand that we are in the last days, we are to redouble our efforts to get the word out. When the ship first begins to sink, ye walk to each cabin and ensure that everyone gets ready to abandon ship, orderly and calm. Calm is enforced. As the ship begins to list, ye double your efforts to make sure that everyone is aware and boarding the lifeboats. As the prow rises and the slow descent begins, ye cease walking and run. Ye grab as many survivors as ye can and throw them into the lifeboats. Ye stop being polite and courteous and cease worrying about offending others.
We don't have time to play church!
Jesus likened the End Times as a woman giving birth. We don't know the hour or the day, but we will know by observation that it is very near. Well, it is unco near now. The woman is dialated and the man of sins (anti-christ) head is trying to pop out and take over.
I like what Mike Warnke said once. "When the rapture comes, I'm going to grab a sinner in each hand as we rise. And when we get a mile from the ground I'm going to ask them, "Will you be saved, or do I let go?" ;D
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RAPTURE
Apr 20, 2002 15:51:14 GMT -5
Post by Dennisspecialwords on Apr 20, 2002 15:51:14 GMT -5
WHO IS ISRAEL? I truly believe that much of the terror worldwide is caused by "the philosophy of OLD Plymouth Brethren “Prophets” who have misapplied the Scriptures (the vast majority long fulfilled) for the last one hundred and fifty years, stating that "Israel" has a God given right to the land of Palestine. This “prophetic” hermeneutic is fundamentally flawed and at variance with the New Testament. It fails to comprehend what Augustine discovered; The New (Testament) is in the Old (Testament) concealed, the Old (Testament) is by the New (testament) revealed. Take a look at this wonderful Scripture, which says it all: Joshua 21:43-22:1 So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing, which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass. The Lord indeed fulfill promises of Peaceful land, but "Israel" rejected her greatest peace which enlisted the Lord Jesus to proclaim just before His death: Matt 23:37-38 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; Now, if we let the Apostles speak (by the inspiration of God) we will see God's plan for "Jews," Israel" and "those to whom the promises are for." 1. Rom 2:28-3:1 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. 2. Rom 9:6-10 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed (Israel according to the flesh, MY WORDS ADDED) of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 3. Gal 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 4. Gal 3:27-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, (Spiritual seed, MY WORDS ADDED) and heirs according to the promise. 5. Gal 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. CONCLUSION: The Lord Jesus, the Apostles and early disciples suffered persecutions and death from the hands of the (flesh) Jews because they proclaimed that the Gospel is for all and there is no advantage of one ethnic people over another. To proclaim that God would revert back to desiring the Old Testament mentality, as His method of receiving worship would dishonor Christ Jesus and the freedom He has given us in his grace. Heb 10:3-7 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats (Old Testament form of worship, MY WORDS ADDED) could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God. Christ Jesus is our all in all. In Him and Him alone is our hope, not in who we are but, Whose we are. Now, what should all these Scriptures say to our hearts? "MY HOPE IS BUILT ON NOTHING LESS THAN JESUS BLOOD AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. I DARE NOT TRUST THE SWEETEST FRAME, BUT WHOLLY LEAN ON JESUS NAME. ON CHRIST THE SOLID ROCK I STAND, ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND, ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND"
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RAPTURE
Apr 20, 2002 22:00:35 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on Apr 20, 2002 22:00:35 GMT -5
Friend, I think you are mixing salvation and prophecy or something. I am not a Jew and I am not Israel, but by salvation I am grafted into that vine. When Jesus comes again to the planet, it is hard to see some of the prophecies making any sense without them being in a Jewish/Israel context. The nations will be surrounding her, so their has to be a nation. When has a seed of David sat on the throne lately and yet, it seems pretty clear that will happen. Revelation is pretty clear about a 1,000 year reign, which is to come since I do not see anything like it in history and since the devil is still with us that pretty much proves it has not happened, yet. Indeed, it does appear that many of the "Old Plymouth Brethren" prophecies are happening before our eyes and even if you would be correct, I must still bless the seed of Abraham or be cursed by that covenant that is in eternal effect. If the US has to choose between Israel and the whole world, we better pick Israel or their will be nothing but nuclear ash of us. With them, we outnumber the world. I believe when the Rapture happens, the powers that be may side with the AntiChrist against Israel or not, but I suspect that the US will be toast shortly thereafter since we make Sodom look like a Holiness campmeeting.
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RAPTURE
Apr 22, 2002 12:50:25 GMT -5
Post by enoch on Apr 22, 2002 12:50:25 GMT -5
Ouch!! and Amen!!! ;D God is not finished with Israel yet. Even Paul said to pray for the peace of Israel. And my hearts desire is to see Israel saved. God still has plans for Israel, but not as they hope. He is not going to make them a nation above all nations, but rather they will, yes Israel will be a light unto all the other nations in the End Times as God calls out His select 144,000 from Israel. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. I know not of Plymouth Brethren prophecies, but I do know that I have tried to look Open-Minded at the Books of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and 2 Thessalonians with a view of Pre-Millenial, Amillenial, Post millenial, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib, literal, rhetorical and even fanciful, but the only view that makes any sense of all the prophecies which are being fulfilled all around us is a literal, Pre-millenial, Pre-Tribulation view. It combines all the prophecies of the Books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation and 2 Thessalonians without doing damage to any of them. They all fit. 8) Any other view that I have tried to examine takes great liberties with His Word, His Work and His truth. There is a simple truth to studying God's Word. Where He tells you to understand it as literal, take it literal. Where He tells you to take it figurative, (i.e. like unto, as unto) take it figurative. Most of us can understand this simple maxim. When God is described as watching over His own like a chick under wings, we don't automatically picture God as a great hen, unless there is something dreadfully wrong with our reasoning. There is an evangelist named Bob Farber who operates out of Whitesboro, TX. He is an Hebrew Christian who specializes in Evangelism with End Times prophecies as the motivation for winning souls and coming to Jesus Christ. He has done 2 revivals at Churches I have pastored and the Lord has blessed him tremendously. He has a pretty full schedule, but occasionally (actually rarely) a cancellation comes up and he will fit someone in. He is very much in demand and has shared Christ throughout the US, Canada, Australia, Europe and the Indies. His number is (903) 564-3371. He comes to any church on a love offering basis. With the exceptions of Tim LaHaye or Jack van Impe, I can think of no one with a better handle on prophecy. He has tapes of his messages and Bible studies available.
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RAPTURE
Apr 23, 2002 17:25:31 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on Apr 23, 2002 17:25:31 GMT -5
The end must be coming. Enoch and I agree on something.
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RAPTURE
Apr 24, 2002 10:07:44 GMT -5
Post by Dennisspecialwords on Apr 24, 2002 10:07:44 GMT -5
Shiloh:
Mixing Salvation and prophecy has always been the thing that God does! I don’t think they can be separated, do you really? Our very salvation was a completion of prophecy! Isn’t it something, how the Jew missed all of this because he, like you believed that God wanted an earthly kingdom? Think about it. You say you are not a Jew and not Israel? See what God through Paul’s writing said to the Gentile church at Rome in Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Do you really want to exclude yourself? You are not Israel? Again Paul to the Gentile church in Galatians: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:15-16.
Who then is this “Israel of God?” Again Galatians Gal 4:28-31 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
You see, dear friend, Paul’s enemies were the Jews (those born after the flesh) who persecuted him with a vengeance for claiming that Christ indeed was the fulfillment of all prophesy! Hmmm. Still don’t want to identify with the true Israel of God? One more and I shall let you go.
Gal 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
You see, if you are to claim Christ, you are to claim the confirmed covenant promise, not a temporal law, given to condemn. Paul said that the Lord Jesus completed the work, God the Father was satisfied with Him and yet you want to return to Jewish fables of their superiority? I think not.
If God was never pleased with the blood of bulls and goats (and he never was) do you actually think that He wants to re-institute that system?
No Brother, The message is clear, Christ is our all in all. May I suggest that you keep your eyes in the Word and less in the Newspapers?
I shall await your refutation of my statements, please if you will, address these argument and Scriptures?
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RAPTURE
Apr 25, 2002 21:00:17 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on Apr 25, 2002 21:00:17 GMT -5
What is your pedigree? You sound like a covenant Presby or one of the those Reconstructionist lads. You seem to know my Pre-Trib position so you know the Scriptures and how we interpret them. Rehashing at this point may be futile.
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RAPTURE
Apr 25, 2002 22:50:34 GMT -5
Post by enoch on Apr 25, 2002 22:50:34 GMT -5
We are not Jews. And the prophecy of 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel cannae be applied to us as though we were wi'out doing great harm to the Holy Scriptures. Paul never, never ever said that we had supplanted the Jews as God's people. We have not. Rather as grace is applied to those whom the Holy Spirit calls, there is "no difference between Jew and Greek, bond or free, male or female." There is no difference spiritually, but for all the world, I think ye'd agree that , thank God, there is a difference to see. For we have all participated in that "one LORD, one faith and one baptism" which consumates us as joint heirs with Christ. But physically, and prophetically we are not Jews and God is not done with His people Israel. Ezekiel 37-39 deals with the resurrected Israel. Zechariah also prophecies of a restored Israel which is surrounded by his enemies in the latter days. Jesus spoke to the Jews when He prophecied of the latter days in Matthew 24-25. The promises to Israel are not completely fulfilled and cannae be fulfilled by Gentile Christians. Daniel prophecied that in the latter days when the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled, that God would indeed begin to deal with Israel. In the book of Hosea, we are presented with Israel, the harlot wife of God. God presents Israel as His wife. The Church, not Israel, shall be the Bride of Christ. Israel's marriage to God is Old Testament, the Marriage feast of the Lamb is future. It will take place after the Church is reunited with Christ. There is a great difference atween Israel and the Church. There is a great difference in how God will deal with us and Israel. The Tribulation Period is God's final attempt to get man's attention and restore His relationship with man, in particular, Israel. That is why the Bible tells us that God will raise up 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is why the 2 witnesses, (probably Elijah, and I personally think the other is going to be Enoch, not only because I bare this dear Saint's name ;D, but because he, like Elijah did not die, and "it is appointed unto man once to die.") are going to preach the Gospel to Israel specifically. This is why we see that the Temple will be rebuilt. It is not that God desires sacrifices of bulls and goats, He has never desired such! But man will continue to reach God through religion, God kens this and so He tells us of this. He does not cause mankind to sacrifice in an effort to be acceptable to Him, He simply kens that man will do so. In the same vein, God does not force man to sin, He simply kennt that man would do so. Ye cannae read Daniel and Revelation and dismiss Israel as trivial in God's revealed future history.
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RAPTURE
Apr 26, 2002 7:21:17 GMT -5
Post by Dennisspecialwords on Apr 26, 2002 7:21:17 GMT -5
It appears that with some, it is easier to label than to logically and Biblically address the arguments? Again I ask you all to answer the questions. Remember a most important hermeneutic, The Old Testament is to be interpreted by the New Testament, not the reverse! Abraham was not a Jew (he was a Chaldeian Gen 11:31), Isaac was not a Jew just the son of Abraham! The Jew was never a particular “genetic” people, but a chosen line through Jacob! Esau was Jacob’s brother from the same Father and Mother, yet our God chose to bless Jacob giving him the first name of “Israel”, meaning prince or power of God. Now, you have repeatedly used OT Scriptures (Yes, they are inspired!) to try to answer the NT statements, appears the Jews of Jesus day wanted to do the same as they killed him? Again I ask my brothers, will you please address the Scriptures and arguments I have put forth, or again avoid them
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RAPTURE
May 2, 2002 16:06:30 GMT -5
Post by Dennisspecialwords on May 2, 2002 16:06:30 GMT -5
Well, I shall gather by the silence of the Brethren, that you have no answer to the Scriptures, only Charts, Newspapers and respect for Doctor So and So, who has the answers in his latest book? Come on Scholars! Let’s at lest make an attempt at proving from the Word your eschatology? Or shall we just label so that we can libel?
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RAPTURE
May 2, 2002 20:24:28 GMT -5
Post by jethro45 on May 2, 2002 20:24:28 GMT -5
"Be ye kind one to another" EPh. 4:32 i not b as smart as some Dennis, but i am goina b ruling and rainin with Jesus, cause when He comes again in the cloud, i b goin out of here, and in 7 years i comin back with Him to watch how it all turns out for 1000 years. If u b here i'll b sure to say hey.
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RAPTURE
May 2, 2002 23:55:34 GMT -5
Post by enoch on May 2, 2002 23:55:34 GMT -5
Well I am still not sure what your question is, however if you wish to speak eschatology, I'm your mon. Starting with Leviticus 23, God lays out the prophetic calendar of the ages. The first feast of the Passover was fulfilled in Christ at the Cross, the second of unleavened bread was fulfilled in the tomb, the third of first fruits was fulfilled at the Resurrection. The fourth of the Pentecost was fulfilled in the birth of the Church. The 2 wave offerings represent the Church and Israel. The fifth of the Trumpets, we eagerly await at the Rapture, the sixth of the atonement will be fulfilled in the ministry of the 144,000 witnesses of Israel. And the seventh and last will be fulfilled in the New Jerusalem and New Earth. Daniel lays out the prophetic calendar which is being fulfilled even now in Israel. Daniel 2 and 7 lay out the Beast and 4 beasts who represent Babylon, Persia, Greece and finally the Roman Empire/European Economic Union, the 10 toes of iron and clay. In the New Testament, the Jews were told what to expect in Matthew 24. The Church is told in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 5:9. The Church is going to be taken up in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the festival of Shofar, the ram's horn. I Cor 15:50-52. & Revelation 4:1. We shall not experience the Tribulation which is God's wrath poured out upon the unrepentent world. This is not persecution which comes from man, else the Church would probably experience it, but this is God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb. Furthermore, compare Daniel 2 and 7 with Revelation 13 and following. A literal interpretation of God's word is the only interpretation that makes any sense. If you try to bend God's word to make it fit into figurative, fanciful, spiritual allegorical, hyperbole or any other such nonsense, it makes no sense. There I have spoke my peace. For further information or better information than I have been able to share in this small space, see www.jvim.org/ or www.prophecywatchinc.org/. I trust Jack van Impe as my spiritual mentor. He has memorized nearly the entire bible, which gives him more credibility than practically anyone else in my opinion. Another good source is Bob Farber, a Hebrew-Christian Evangelist that it has been my pleasure and honor to know.
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Post by Dennisspecialwords on May 4, 2002 7:48:33 GMT -5
WOW! Jethro45 appears to boast in his ignorance, and Enoch appears to want to re cast shadows! Friends, once again please look at my posts and kindly respond to the Scriptures. If God was NEVER pleased with the OT form of worship (and He wasn’t) due to its prefiguring of things to come through Christ Jesus, what is all this OT mentality reverting back to what God completed? We are not to re-pour foundations already built upon! May I please have an intelligent response to he above posts?
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