|
RAPTURE
May 4, 2002 14:14:54 GMT -5
Post by enoch on May 4, 2002 14:14:54 GMT -5
"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God." Dennis. Jesus did not do away with the Old Testament, and for you to erroneously toss out anything to do with the Old Testament is to err, terribly! God was not happy with the Old Testament form of worship and sacrifice, not because of the blood though. God says "for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." But rather He wanted obedience. But He knows the hearts of man all too well. He does not desire the Jews to sacrifice animals again in the Tribulation Period, rather though He is going to use the Tribulation Period to bring the Jews to Him. We, the gentiles, are not Jews and not Israel. We enjoy many of the blessings that were promised Israel, but we are not Israel. God said that Israel was as His wife. He was married to Israel. But the Church which comprises both Jew and Greek, bond and free, male and female, are to be the Bride of Christ. God deals with the gentile believer through Grace, even as He offers it to the Jew. This in no means abrogates the special relationship God holds out to Israel. Israel is still God's chosen. You will never find any scripture where God divorces Israel. He states that He hates divorce. You cannot divorce the Old Testament either. Jesus did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, nor the Old Testament, He came to fulfill its promises. God is not through with Israel by any stretch of the imagination. Indeed Paul said, My hearts desire is for Israel to be saved. The prophecies of the Old Testament are yet to be accomplished, and only now begin to make sense when we compare the Old Testament and New Testament prophecies alongside. Simple hermaneutics should teach you that much.
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 4, 2002 20:30:06 GMT -5
Post by Dennisspecialwords on May 4, 2002 20:30:06 GMT -5
I AM USING UPPER CASE TO DISTINGUISH FROM ENOCH’S STATEMENTS AND MINE "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God." BROTHER E. THANK YOU FOR YOUR “KIND” WORDS! NOW LET’S LOOK AT YOUR ERRORS SHALL WE? Jesus did not do away with the Old Testament, and for you to erroneously toss out anything to do with the Old Testament is to err, terribly! JESUS DID DO AWAY WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT (TYPES, EMBLEMS AND SHADOWS) IN FULFILLING IT. IF YOU WANT TO RETURN TO THESE THINGS, WHO ERRS? God was not happy with the Old Testament form of worship and sacrifice, not because of the blood though. God says "for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." ARE YOU SAYING BROTHER E. THAT IF THEY WOULD HAVE “OBEYED”, GOD WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS? I KNOW I SHALL UPSET YOU, BUT I MUST USE THE NEW TESTAMENT Heb 10:4 “FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.” but rather he wanted obedience. But He knows the hearts of man all too well. He does not desire the Jews to sacrifice animals again in the Tribulation Period, rather though He is going to use the Tribulation Period AH, SO YOU DO BELIEVE THAT SOME WILL GET A “SECOND CHANCE” AFTER THE GOSPEL AGE? TO BRING THE JEWS TO HIM. I ALWAYS BELIEVED AS THE NT SAYS IN 2 COR 6:2 “BEHOLD, NOW IS THE ACCEPTED TIME; BEHOLD, NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.)” We, the gentiles, are not Jews and not Israel. AGAIN SORRY TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE BUT, ADDRESS THESE NT SCRIPTURES WON’T YOU? Rom 2:28-3:1 “FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHO IS ONE OUTWARDLY, NOR IS CIRCUMCISION THAT WHICH IS OUTWARD IN THE FLESH; BUT HE IS A JEW WHO IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT FROM MEN BUT FROM GOD.” ;D IF YOU ARE NOT A JEW THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED, ACCORDING TO PAUL, WANT TO TAKE HIM ON? :-/We enjoy many of the blessings that were promised Israel, but we are not Israel. Ok, SPEAK TO THIS NT VERSE Galatians Gal 4:28-31 “NOW WE, BRETHREN, AS ISAAC WAS, ARE THE CHILDREN OF PROMISE. BUT AS THEN HE THAT WAS BORN AFTER THE FLESH PERSECUTED HIM THAT WAS BORN AFTER THE SPIRIT, EVEN SO IT IS NOW. NEVERTHELESS WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE? CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON: FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN. SO THEN, BRETHREN, WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE BONDWOMAN, BUT OF THE FREE.” God said that Israel was as His wife. He was married to Israel. But the Church which comprises both Jew and Greek, bond and free, male and female, are to be the Bride of Christ. God deals with the gentile believer through Grace, even as He offers it to the Jew. This in no means abrogates the special relationship God holds out to Israel. Israel is still God's chosen. You will never find any scripture where God divorces Israel. He states that He hates divorce. You cannot divorce the Old Testament either. Jesus did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, nor the Old YES, YES THAT IS MY ARGUMENT! Testament, He came to fulfill its promises. God is not through with Israel by any stretch of the imagination. Indeed Paul said, My hearts desire is for Israel to be saved. The prophecies of the Old Testament are yet to be accomplished, HMMM, LOOK HERE AND ANSWER, JOSHUA 21:43-22:1 SO THE LORD GAVE TO ISRAEL ALL THE LAND OF WHICH HE HAD SWORN TO GIVE TO THEIR FATHERS, AND THEY TOOK POSSESSION OF IT AND DWELT IN IT. THE LORD GAVE THEM REST ALL AROUND, ACCORDING TO ALL THAT HE HAD SWORN TO THEIR FATHERS. AND NOT A MAN OF ALL THEIR ENEMIES STOOD AGAINST THEM; THE LORD DELIVERED ALL THEIR ENEMIES INTO THEIR HAND. NOT A WORD FAILED OF ANY GOOD THING, WHICH THE LORD HAD SPOKEN TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. ALL CAME TO PASS. and only now begin to make sense (MAKE SENSE TO WHOM, THE UNBELIEVER WANTING SOMETHING MORE THAN JESUS!) when we compare the Old Testament and New Testament prophecies alongside. (YOUR HERMENEUTIC IS FLAWED, YOU MUST ALLOW THE NT TO INTERPRET THE OT, NOT LAY THEM “ALONG SIDE.” Simple hermeneutics should teach you that much. YES, BROTHER I CAN SEE FROM HERE YOUR “SIMPLE” HERMENEUTICS!
|
|
|
Post by enoch on May 5, 2002 0:46:40 GMT -5
I will attempt just once more to share with you about the scriptures. But beware arrogant hubris in deciding to do away with the Old Testament. Jesus did not do away with the Old Testament, He fulfilled it. Paul did not do away with the Old Testament, but rather proved the Gospel through it. John did not do away with it, but rather warned any who would do away with it, that its curses would fall on them. Nowhere in the scriptures does God give anyone the authority or permission to pick and choose from His word what we can and cannot omit. He did not do away with the Old Testament types and shadows, He fulfilled them perfectly. And it is in our studies of the Old Testament that we are shown this. "And according to the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission." Heb. 9:22 The sacrifices were a type looking forward to the true and perfect sacrifice which would take away the sins of the world, permanently, when accompanied by faith. The blood of bulls and goats was only acceptable when rendered along with faith. Even today this is the pattern, the sacrifice will only purify us when we accept through faith, what Christ blood sacrifice has accomplished. And without faith, even the shedding of blood is unacceptable. And yes, I do indeed believe that God will extend another chance to those left behind. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come unto repentence. Eventually even God's patience will extend no further, but that isn't until more than halfway through the Tribulation period when nearly all that is left are those who took the mark. Sorry to burst your bubble, though. Nowhere in Romans does he equate the gentile believers as Jews, but rather states that those gentiles who believe and receive and show holy lifestyles were acting better Jews than the Jews. I would not want to have been one of the Jews that Paul was speaking to. He begins Romans 1-2 by calling to task all the terrible sins of the Roman Empire, and getting the Jews to agree, and then turns it around and tells the Jews that it was not the Gentiles he was talking about but rather the Jews themselves who were so high minded and arrogant. Nowhere in the scriptures does Paul say that we are Jews who were born Gentile. Rather we have been grafted into the people of promise. We are children of God and call him "Abba, Father" through the spirit of adoption, not of original birth, but by adoption. And adoption carries all the rights, responsibilities and blessings of a birth child. As to the prophecies unfulfilled as yet, we have not seen the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39. Nor have we seen the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:1-4. These along with the prophecies of Joel are future. You cannot simply say that these are the past and do not apply anymore. They are the word of God. "All scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,m for instruction in righteousness:" This is the last I shall say on this particular subject. I shall adhere to the wisdom of I Timothy 6:20 and warn you at the least not to be so arrogant as to decide for yourself what of God's word is for today and what is not. I Tim. 3:16
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 5, 2002 17:15:27 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on May 5, 2002 17:15:27 GMT -5
Methinks that unless it agrees with you there will be no intelligent response. I have other pressing issues that deal with the nasty now and now and I am not really concerned about this issue. It is not on the hottest burner at this time. If I had more time I might enjoy the exercise running with this, but I think Enoch can handle it best. To me, the thing is so clear that I have difficulty seeing you point unless I can have the bottom line presupposition or premise on your part hence my desire to know your pedigree so I can have a clue as to where you are coming from and going to.
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 5, 2002 19:33:46 GMT -5
Post by Dennisspecialwords on May 5, 2002 19:33:46 GMT -5
Well, Dear Shiloh: If you have no time for the Word, why then do you correspond? Me thinks you must have your two cents worth, even though you can’t afford the debate? I say this is jest, dear brother, so bring your temperature down a few degrees. 8) It appears that only heat has been generated within your premillennial dispensational ranks and no light at all! How sad that you want my pedigree? That’s what the Jews wanted of Jesus and Paul! I fear giving you mine would just discourage you more, for it appears that you want to glory in man’s wisdom, Jack VanImpe and the like. I will share with you so you may tear them down (A straw man makes a good opponent) as you appear (and Dr. Enoch?) to handle the Scriptures that I have asked for Comment with distain. OK, Here goes, 2 Yeas @ Baptist Bible College, Springfield, MO Premillennial dispensational Hotbed TH.B Liberty Bible College, Waco TX Premillennial Dispensational BS Religious Education, Florida Baptist College, Brandon (Tampa) FL Premillennial Dispensational MS Counseling Dallas Theological Seminary (Tampa Campus) These guys invented Premillennial Dispensationalism TH. D Theology, Church History, Missions, Florida Baptist Seminary, Brandon (Tampa) Premillennial Dispensational As you can see dear Brother, I have been in he midst of it! I am 55 years old, married to Carolyn for 37 years, 3 grown children 6 grandchildren An SBC Pastor of 30 years Taught History in a Christian High School and hermeneutics in our local Seminary Extension in our Association. A Deputy Sheriff and Marshall in Southwest Missouri Owner of a Radio Shack Dealership, Electrical Wholesale Company and a Personalized Children’s Story book company. I don’t say this to impress you, you just asked. Is this really going to make a difference? Me thinks not!
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 6, 2002 19:22:53 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on May 6, 2002 19:22:53 GMT -5
Rom 11:25-36 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (KJV)
When is the end of the fulness of the Gentiles? Paul clearly delineates between Jews and Gentiles. When has David sat again on a throne in Israel or even Christ as the Son of David? Those are Jewish concepts and will be fulfilled. As a Gentile, I have no need of a King to be in Jerusalem. That is important to a Jew, but not really to me. Jesus could come back and reign in Idaho or Moscow as far as Gentiles are concerned, but the Jews expect Him in Jerusalem and I do because He said He would, but as my ethnos it has no real specific value. The heart of the Jew is tied up in Jersualem. Except for promises made to David and prophecies concerning the land in Ezekiel there is no reason why Christ could not come back, snatch us up, toast the planet and have the new heaven and new earth right then. Yet, we clearly see Him reigning in Jerusalem for 1,000 years and then fighting one last battle with satan. Why? To keep various promises to the Jews like them being the head of all nations. When has that happened since He was taken up? When have all nations coming up to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice or else having a drought happened? It is not over for the Jews. Indeed, I am a child of Abraham because he is the father of the faithful and that was given to him before "Jews" existed since it is a form of Judah and he was not born for a while after Abraham got that title. So he is the father of "Gentile" believers as well as those who can trace their blood line through him. Hence in him all nations shall be blessed. All nations, not just the Jewish one hence the fulness of the Gentiles can exist before one last gleaning to bring in the Jews during the Trib and thus redeeming the nation so that national promises can be fulfilled.
The Jews were supposed to bless the Gentiles and bring them into the fold. As a whole, they failed to do that and this current period may be considered a balancing of the scales or God doing through Christ what they failed to do. Hence their disobedience brought us mercy for that disobedience culminated in their rejection of Christ. Now, we are to be obedient to God and merciful to them seeking to bring them into what they should have had by accepting Christ. In the end, two thirds of the nation wil be killed, but one third saved and they will receive their Messiah as a nation at last. Why you cannot see these things I have no clue. Revelation describes a lot of these things and it is discussed here in Romans and throughout the Bible. I do not have time to do a complete and exhaustive systematic theology for you. I was hoping enoch would pick up the torch here as it seems to be more of his interest area.
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 6, 2002 23:59:23 GMT -5
Post by enoch on May 6, 2002 23:59:23 GMT -5
Wheesht! Yank, I ken I hae said mair than eno' already. Unco mair than my share. ;D It is a joy, but one that needs for mair than mysel' to pick up and run wi'. I am reminded to "avoid profane babblings" :-Xand while yours for one dinnae fall in this category, others hae!
|
|
|
Post by enoch on May 7, 2002 0:15:47 GMT -5
By the way, Shiloh! If you're not European or Asian, you are a Yank to everyone else. All Americans are Yanks to us Brits! ;D ;D ;D Sorry Reb.
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 7, 2002 11:59:32 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on May 7, 2002 11:59:32 GMT -5
Mebbe so, but I would clarify that issue in a hertbeat when I started singing Dixie and pulled out my flag.
Actually, there are a lot of Rebs buried in England and folks take care of the graves and honor the men that are in them. It is only the lies and propaganda that make it different here.
I cain't spell it but even the folks fighting for freedom from Russia use my flag as a symbol of fighting for freedom against an foe four times their size.
Indeed, if it took my ancestors 4 years to beat an army it outnumbered 4 to 1 and they was far better equipped than that army, I don't think I would be bragging much about it. Indeed if ole Jeff Davis hadn't been a good Secretary of the Army and modernized and doubled the Army they might not have beaten us at all so it took a Reb to beat a Reb.
God Save The South!
|
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 7, 2002 20:18:09 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on May 7, 2002 20:18:09 GMT -5
Hardly. We haven't been that since 1860 or maybe even before. Unless you have had to put up with some of the flack from folks who automatically see you are an inbred, racist, moron once they see you are from the South you won't understand. The Media still plays that tune as does poor education in the schools and even an AOL commercial played that tune but was soon off the air. Had it been any other group, AOL would be in Chapter 11 by now from the lawsuits.
I have had to endure many a taunt and an insult from Yanks who never got over winning the war that wonder why the South has never gotten over losing it. It has been a cold war since 1865 and will most likely continue until the Rapture. Even then some Yank will probably blame the Southerners that are left for the disappearance. Anyway, this was just a little jabe between me and Enoch not meant to shanghai the subject, which really wasn't going anywhere anyway.
Actually, Dennis I thought maybe you were Chruch of Christ. Though you have said what I already said that you are already familiar with my position and me doing a thorough systematic rehash would be of no avail. I have time for the Word, but I have bigger fish to fry at this time and if you wish to be here through the Trib or don't believe in a Trib or a Mill or whatever that is your right as an American. Press on and Shalom! Enoch can have this fray. I will fight on another field.
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 7, 2002 21:57:36 GMT -5
Post by enoch on May 7, 2002 21:57:36 GMT -5
Just like you Rebs, give up too soon! ;D We were defeated numerically in 1746 but never truly beaten. And now, we have our Parliament and the Stone of Destiny back on Scottish soil. It won't be long till we have our independence. Then we will be whistling our form of Dixie. "That stood against them, Proud Edwards army. And sent them hameward, tae think again." I felt that it were the better part of discretion to allow others to take up this debate with Dennis. It is ajoy speaking of the Rapture. I have long maintained that prophecy properly understood is to motivate us to reach as many lost with the good news while there is still time. When Christ comes back for us, I would rather He finds me sharing the Gospel and trying to win souls, than pecking away at the pc. To that end, I encourage others, gang on and let us examine the full scope of Dennis's strange views. As we study to answer his comments, we find we learn more about our own views. Amen!
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 8, 2002 13:52:12 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on May 8, 2002 13:52:12 GMT -5
enoch, ya don't worry about a fox in the hen house when ya have a bear in the main house. I'll let ya handle the hen house while I get my Bowie knife and go get me a new rug. ;D ;D
|
|
|
RAPTURE
May 8, 2002 13:56:47 GMT -5
Post by Shiloh on May 8, 2002 13:56:47 GMT -5
Ya know, Laddie, there are still a few Scots among us in spirit and maybe one day we will have our capital back in Virginny or even better Bama. The Liberals can have the North, the Moderates the West and we Conservative can have the South including TX. Fiscally, I figure the South will pay off their share of the National Debt in 15 years. The West in 25 and the North will have to sel themselves to Canada in bankruptcy.
Deo Vindice!!
|
|
|
RAPTURE
Jun 11, 2002 16:47:39 GMT -5
Post by boB on Jun 11, 2002 16:47:39 GMT -5
I got lost somewehere, but what does the civil war have to do with the rapture.
Jesus is comming again. Lets focus on what important. Right now too many Baptists will be the first ones to go up in the rapture (II Thes 4:16) ...for the DEAD in Christ shall rise first!!! Lets preach the good news!!!
|
|